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'04 LTZ400 - Odd starting issue...

7358 Views 17 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  japotesak04, 
D
Hey guys!

I have a really weird issue with my LTZ. I have had it for about 3 months and ride it all the time. Have never had ANY issues with it at all.

A 2 or 3 weeks ago, I lost my key on a day of a big ride. I took my stock key assembly apart and made it so I could turn the key positions with pretty much anything. (Took apart lock tumbler and reassembled) Rode all day no problems at all. Even a few rides after that, no problem.

Then I went to go riding one day during the week and when I unloaded it wouldnt start. Was cranking like crazy but not getting all the way over. Had gas, had spark, air cleaner not clogged, carb all clean... After 15 mins of checking and trying, it finally jumped over and turned to life. Awesome. Shes alive. Took her around a bit and was running just as normal. HERES WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING! lol... I shut it off and tried to turn it back on and it fired right up. Not even a flinch. Rode for a few hours and continued to do such. Shut off.... Even let sit for 20 mins, bang... started right up...

So in the next few days, I finally got some time to dig into it and also my new ignition and key came... I double checked everything and put a new spark plug in just for maintenance. Everything working good. But no start. Tried and tried and tried... Had a battery pack hooked up to it for a little while after reading sometimes battery could be culprit... Still nothing... A while later after some cranking.... Finally it turned over. Bang she runs. Runs great, shut it off and start it up again no problem for rest of time.

This weekend, I went riding and it wasnt starting again. Only gave it about 3 mins of trying to start it before I tried to pop start it. Pop/Roll started it and it fired right up. Continued to fire up every time after that with ZERO hesitation all day. Long rides. Longs breaks, no problem.

Im stuck as to what it could be? Would it continue to start right up if battery was dead? Idt so... Im going to try to charge/test the battery and see whats up. But other than that, i have no idea why it would not start at all with electric start until after pop started.....

Help me out guys!!!


TLDR: Cranks like crazy, but wont turn on. Suddenly turned on after a bunch of tries; continues to start with electric start with zero issues once its started one time. Pop starts right up and continues to start all day after that... Even shutting off and letting sit and restarting with electric start. no problem.
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dtfm33
Everyone knows, Any time you mess with the key switch you need to check the valve lash on the valves!

Just kidding, but seriously you are describing a valve lash issue. Most likely you will find the lash on the intake valve is too small do even closed.
What type of air filter do you have. How often do you clean it?

Easy way to confirm this is to jump start the quad when it won't start with the starter.

Also, please read the site history on the mail on the main page. It will help you post in the right section.

Move to proper section.
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D
Not sure exactly what kind of filter. I think its just a replacement one in the stock box. I have yet to clean it since purchase. Seller noted it was a relatively new replacement...

Is this going to damage the quad riding it like that?

And also, would valve lash still be the culprit if it starts fine WITH the electric starter once its been pop started? Legit, started all day without even a flinch after jump starting it in the begging of the day. Even after drive home and unload, still started right up back at the house to bring to shed.....
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amcf18
It might not be the valve clearance, but you have to rule it out.. If it is, it won't kill the quad to run it, but why would you? Time to fix it..If it is the clearance you can change shims for a temp. fix, but you will need to do the valves soon.
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amcf18 said:
It might not be the valve clearance, but you have to rule it out.. If it is, it won't kill the quad to run it, but why would you? Time to fix it..If it is the clearance you can change shims for a temp. fix, but you will need to do the valves soon.
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I dont plan on riding now that im aware of the problem... Was making sure it wasnt bad bc i already did all day yesterday.

Just checked my manual for the valve clearance procedure and will dig into it. I dont think it will be the issue, but who knows the last time it was checked.

If the valves are out of spec, and a common sign is it not starting but pop starting.... why will it electric start all day from being popped in the begging of day....

see!!! its odd!!
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jetmech25
The valves needing shimming often causes "won't start when cold, starts great when warm" problems. Sounds like that's what you have.

Also sounds like a stolen Z. (just sayin).
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jetmech25 said:
Also sounds like a stolen Z. (just sayin).
Click to expand...

hahaha how is that? I bought it 4 months ago with original key. Can see my original post. Thanks for checking in though... :wink2:
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dtfm33
Also, just as a reference most guys clean their air filter every ride or every couple of rides. The reason is: The intake valves have a coating on them to protect them. If the air filter is not working well, dirt will slip by and "Sand Blast" the coating off the valves. Then once the coating is gone, the valves cup. This is when the valve to seat area of the valve is pushed down. The valve stem then raises up decreasing the lash. I have a friend who toasted brand new valves because he did not install the carb to air box boot correctly and a bunch of dirt got sucked in. He had about 6 hours of riding before the vales were toast. It does not take much.

The reason it will bump start when cold is the added compression of the bump start. Once the engine is warmed up, the piston, rings other items expand enough to give you enough compression to start.

One last thing, the stock filter configuration sucks. It relies on the filter to have pressure against the front of the airbox. Get a clamp on style filter. I have a 2004 LTZ that had the original valves with no issues. I changed them out with DRZ spring when I installed my higher rev Dyna CDI.
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spize909
ALL the classic symptoms...
http://www.suzukicentral.com/forums...78535-checking-valve-lash-changing-shims.html
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So ive ordered a HotCams 9.78 shim kit and will wait until it arrives....

thank you DTFM33 for the explanation. Def helps me understand the issue.

How long of a fix is shimming the valves? I guess it depends on how far out they are? Looks like Spize did his in January, and rechecked in December and needed readjustment before a ride session....

Sometimes after a while of riding I could hear a faint whining coming from the engine... Would i be correct in assuming the this the trans getting hot?? Doesnt happen all the time and usually really notice towards end of the day....
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spize909
I don't know about the whining....maybe try a different oil.
As for the valves, once they start going, they keep on going. Reshim once....then change them out. I ended up pulling the head on that one.
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D
What oil are you guys using??

Should I change my jets as well??

I just ordered a replacement filter and 1" box breathers. I also have a slip on DG exhaust. Carb is stock from what previous owner told me.

If im in there and tearing stuff apart, might as well make it nice while im in there. ;)
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dtfm33
IMHO you are wasting money on a stock filter configuration. Even if you but a K&N style stock replacement, you are risking dirt getting by. The only way to fix that is to get a clamp on style.
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dtfm33 said:
IMHO you are wasting money on a stock filter configuration. Even if you but a K&N style stock replacement, you are risking dirt getting by. The only way to fix that is to get a clamp on style.
Click to expand...

It is a clamp on style filter... It's a twin air ATV air filter

going to make sure its all nice and tight before heading out each time...

Whats the best way to "clean" these filters after each ride as some of you say you do?? Soap and water and let it dry out real good??
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dtfm33
Cool! Is it a foam style or K&N style?
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D
Did some work on the Z this weekend when I had some time and got the valves shimmed. Was a little nervous about removing the cams and timing chains, but all went well.

Got it all back together, and it started right up before the button was even pushed in all the way.

DEF has more compression now too. Lifts up in second gear with just the smallest tug. Thanks for the help guys!!
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dtfm33
Thanks for the feedback! Great to hear. You may want to consider new valves in the future. If the valves cup again soon, you will definately need to replace them.
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japotesak04
Dc2-Productions said:
Did some work on the Z this weekend when I had some time and got the valves shimmed. Was a little nervous about removing the cams and timing chains, but all went well. Got it all back together, and it started right up before the button was even pushed in all the way. DEF has more compression now too. Lifts up in second gear with just the smallest tug. Thanks for the help guys!!
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Omg guys. Thank y’all so much. Mine is having this same problem except I haven’t bump started it, it just ends up starting after a long while. 👍
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